Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls (12 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/24/2001 12:33 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 57)  
 
  42.1  
 
Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls 
Septuagint is the entire Old Testament of the Bible translated from the Jewish Hebrew language into the Geek language approximately 200 B.C.. Many of our English book titles from the Old Testament are from the Septuagint version. Genesis (Beginnings), Exodus (Out of Path), Psalms (Songs). 

The books of the Old Testament were completed by the Jews in the Jewish Hebrew language about 400 B.C.. Then approximately 200 B.C. the Old Testament was entirely translated by a small group of devout Jews from the Hebrew language into scrolls written in the Greek language. This is significant because these events occurred 400 & 200 years before the birth of Jesus. Much of the Old Testament was written as prophecy about the coming of Jesus. With two versions, the Hebrew and the Greek, of the Bible circulating around the world prior to the birth of Jesus, it is impossible to add text to the Bible to portray the life of Jesus after the birth of Jesus. If text had been added to the Geek version of the Bible, it would no longer match the Hebrew Bible. Likewise if text were added to the Hebrew Bible about Jesus then there were still 2,500 years of Hebrew and 200 years of Greek Bibles circulating around the world that would not substantiate the new versions. 

In 1947-1956 in the Dead Sea region of Israel, Hebrew Bibles called the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, sealed in clay jars that were hidden in various caves. The Dead Sea scrolls date back to the times before, during, and shortly after Jesus walked on earth. The entire Old Testament except the book of Ester was found. When our modern Old Testament Bibles were compared to the Dead Sea Scrolls, Old Testament Bibles the Bibles were virtually identical, except for a very few spelling differences they were identical. This is stunning proof that the Bible has remained unedited since it was originally written, and that the prophecies about Jesus existed in the Bible years before the birth of Jesus. Proving that the Bible is written with exact knowledge of events before they happen. Showing the Bible to be written with more knowledge than man possesses, knowledge that can only come from God. 

Excerpt from the Book 
Basic Christian: Theology 
By David A. Brown




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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Edited 7/1/01 11:12:54 AM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 3:32 pm  
To:  ALL   (2 of 57)  
 
  42.2 in reply to 42.1  
 
Here are two links to more Deas Sea Scroll information 
www.exchangedlife.com/deadsea_scrolls.htm 
www.physics.arizona.edu/physics/public/dead-sea.html 
Following is some of the information from the www.exchangedlife.com web site hosted by Noted Christian Author Grant Jeffries 

Extraordinary Evidence About Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls 

If someone had asked a minister in 1947 to prove that the original Hebrew Scriptures from the Old Testament were reliably copied without error throughout the last two thousand years, he might have had some difficulty in providing an answer. The oldest Old Testament manuscript used by the King James translators was dated approximately A.D. 1100. Obviously, that old manuscript from A.D. 1100 was a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. for over two thousand years. How could we be sure that the text in the A.D. 1100 copy of the Scriptures was identical with the original text as given to the writers by God and inspired by Him? However, an extraordinary discovery occurred in the turbulent year before Israel became a nation. A Bedouin Arab found a cave in Qumran near the Dead Sea which ultimately yielded over a thousand priceless manuscripts dating back before A.D. 68, when the Roman legions destroyed the Qumran village during the Jewish war against Rome. 

An Arab shepherd boy discovered the greatest archeological finds in history in 1947. When the ancient Hebrew scrolls from these caves were examined by scholars they found that this Qumran site contained a library with hundreds of precious texts of both biblical and secular manuscripts that dated back before the destruction of the Second Temple and the death of Jesus Christ. Once the Bedouins recognized the value of the scrolls they began searching for additional documents in every valley and cave near the Dead Sea. The most incredible discovery was the immense library of biblical manuscripts in Cave Four at Qumran that contained every single book of the Old Testament with the exception of the Book of Esther. Multiple copies of several biblical texts such as Genesis, Deuteronomy and Isaiah were found in Cave Four. Scholars were able to reach back a further two thousand years in time to examine biblical texts that had lain undisturbed in the desert caves during all of the intervening centuries. The scholars discovered that the Hebrew manuscript copies of the most authoritative Hebrew text, Textus Recepticus, used by the King James translators in 1611, were virtually identical to these ancient Dead Sea Scrolls. After carefully comparing the manuscripts they discovered that, aside from a tiny number of spelling variations, not a single word was altered from the original scrolls in the caves from the much copied A.D. 1100 manuscripts used by the Authorized King James Version translators in 1611. How could the Bible have been copied so accurately and faithfully over the many centuries without human error entering into the text? The answer is found in the overwhelming respect and fear of God that motivated Jewish and Christian scholars whose job was to faithfully copy the text of the Bible. In a later chapter dealing with the Hebrew Codes beneath the text of the Bible, I will share how the Masoretic scribes meticulously copied the text of the Scriptures over the centuries. 
The Essenes were a Jewish community of ascetics that lived primarily in three communities: Qumran at the Dead Sea, the Essene Quarter of Jerusalem (Mount Zion), and Damascus. They appear to have existed from approximately 200 B.C. until the destruction of their communities in Jerusalem and Qumran by the Roman armies in A.D. 68. During the first century there were three significant Jewish religious communities: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Essenes established their religious community near the shores of the Dead Sea. In their love for the Word of God they faithfully copied each Old Testament scroll in their Scriptorium in the village of Qumran. New evidence indicates that these men of God were aware of the new religious leader in Israel known as Jesus of Nazareth and the group of writings about Him known as the New Testament. The Christian historian Eusebius, who wrote around A.D. 300, believed that the Essenes were influenced in their beliefs by Christianity. 






David A. Brown
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 3:38 pm  
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www.exchangedlife.com/deadsea_scrolls.htm 
More Info From Grant Jeffries 

** Especially The Very Interesting New Testament Quotes found in a few of the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

When the scrolls were first discovered, many Christian scholars naturally wondered if they might contain evidence about the new faith of Christianity. Despite overwhelming interest, the vast majority of scrolls were not translated for publication in the intervening forty-nine years. For almost fifty years, the hopes of Christian scholars were frustrated by the decision of the small group of original scroll scholars to withhold publication and release of a significant number of these precious scrolls. Some scholars speculated publicly that there might be evidence about Christ in the unpublished scrolls but the original scroll scholars vehemently denied these claims. While some scroll scholars had published part of their assigned texts, after forty-five years the team responsible for the huge number of scrolls discovered in Cave Four had published only twenty percent of the five hundred Dead Sea Scrolls in their possession. 

Quotes from the New Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls 

Finally, after a public relations campaign demanded the release of the unpublished scrolls to other scholars, the last of the unpublished scrolls were released to the academic world. To the great joy and surprise of many scholars, the scrolls contain definite references to the New Testament and, most importantly, to Jesus of Nazareth. In the last few years several significant scrolls were released that shed new light on the New Testament and the life of Jesus. One of the most extraordinary of these scrolls released in 1991 actually referred directly to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. 

The Crucified Messiah Scroll 

In 1991 the world was astonished to hear that one of the unpublished scrolls included incredible references to a "Messiah" who suffered crucifixion for the sins of men. The scroll was translated by Dr. Robert Eisenman, Professor of Middle East Religions of California State University. He declared, "The text is of the most far-reaching significance because it shows that whatever group was responsible for these writings was operating in the same general scriptural and Messianic framework of early Christianity." Although the original scroll team still claimed that there was no evidence about early Christianity in the unpublished scrolls, this new scroll totally contradicted their statements. This single scroll is earth-shaking in its importance. As Dr. Norman Golb, Professor of Jewish History at the University of Chicago said, "It shows that contrary to what some of the editors said, there are lots of surprises in the scrolls, and this is one of them." 

This remarkable five-line scroll contained fascinating information about the death of the Messiah. It referred to "the Prophet Isaiah" and his Messianic prophecy (Chapter 53) that identified the Messiah as one who will suffer for the sins of his people. This scroll provides an amazing parallel to the New Testament revelation that the Messiah would first suffer death before He would ultimately return to rule the nations. Many scholars believed that the Jews during the first century of our era believed that, when he finally came, the Messiah would rule forever without dying. The exciting discovery of this scroll reveals that the Essene writer of this scroll understood the dual role of the Messiah as Christians did. This scroll identified the Messiah as the "Shoot of Jesse" (King David's father) the "Branch of David," and declared that he was "pierced" and "wounded." The word "pierced" remind us of the Messianic prophecy in Psalms 22:16: "They pierced my hands and feet." The prophet Jeremiah (23:5) said, "I will raise unto David a righteous branch." 

The scroll also describes the Messiah as a "leader of the community" who was "put to death." This reference pointing clearly to the historical Jesus of Nazareth is creating shock waves for liberal scholarship that previously assumed that the Gospel account about Jesus was a myth. Jesus is the only one who ever claimed to be the Messiah who was crucified. The genealogies recorded in both Matthew and Luke's Gospels, reveal that Jesus was the only one who could prove by the genealogical records kept in the Temple that He was the lineage of King David as the "Son of Jesse." Since the tragic destruction of the Temple and its records in A.D. 70 it would be impossible for anyone else to ever prove their claim to be the Messiah based on their genealogical descent from King David. Additionally, the scroll identified the Messiah as "the sceptre" which probably refers to the Genesis 49:10 prophecy, "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." This scroll confirms the historical truthfulness of the New Testament record about Jesus and His crucifixion. The evidence from the scroll suggests that the Jewish Essene writer acknowledged that Jesus of Nazareth was the "suffering Messiah" who died for the sins of His people. 

The "Son of God" Scroll 

Another fascinating scroll discovered in Cave Four known as 4Q246 refers to the hope of a future Messiah figure. This is another of the scrolls that was unpublished until recently. Amazingly, the text in this scroll refers to the Messiah as "the son of God" and the "son of the Most High." These words are the exact wording recorded in the Gospel of Luke. 

The Text of Scroll 4Q246 - the Son of God Scroll: 

"He shall be called the son of God, 
and they shall designate [call] him son of the Most High. 
Like the appearance of comets, so shall be their kingdom. 
For brief years they shall reign over the earth and shall trample on all; 
one people shall trample on another and 
one province on another until the people of God shall rise and all shall rest from the sword." 

Compare the words in the scroll 4Q246 text to the inspired words found in Luke 1:32 and 35: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David... And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:32-35). 

Anyone comparing these two first century texts will be startled by the amazing similarity of concept and wording describing the Messianic leader. One of the great differences between Christian and Jewish conceptions of the promised Messiah revolves around His relationship to God. While the Jews believe the Messiah will be a great man, such as Moses, with a Divine mission, the Christians believe that the Bible teaches that the Messiah would be uniquely "the Son of God." The Jewish view usually held that the concept of a "son of God" violated the primary truth of monotheism found in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The Christians believed that Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was not a violation of Deuteronomy 6:4. Rather, Christians believe in the Trinity, the doctrine that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are revealed in the Bible to be One God, revealed in three personalities. As Christians, we do not believe in three separate gods. Therefore, Christians understand the statements about Jesus as the Son of God to be in complete conformity to the truth of monotheism - there is only one God. It is fascinating in this regard to consider the presence of these statements in this first century Jewish text: "He shall be called the son of God, and they shall designate [call] him son of the Most High." 

The presence of these statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls suggests that some of the Essenes either accepted the Messianic claims of Jesus to be the Son of God or anticipated this concept. Either possibility opens up new areas for exploration. Another possibility that must be considered is this: Is it possible that this scroll 4Q246 is a direct quote from the writer hearing the words of the Gospel of Luke that was now widely circulating according to early Christian witnesses? Luke, the physician, claimed that he wrote the Gospel of Luke as an eyewitness of the events he personally observed. In Luke 1:1-3, he says: "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus." 

The discovery of the virtually identical wording "the Son of God" from Luke 1:32 and 35 with the scroll found buried in a cave in A.D. 68 stands as a tremendous witness to the early existence and transmission of the Gospel records within thirty-five years of Christ. If the Gospels were written and distributed within thirty-five years of the events of the life of Jesus (as the Gospels claim) then they stand as the best eyewitness historical records we could ever hope to possess. It would be almost impossible to distribute the Gospel accounts to thousands of people in Israel within three and a half decades of the events unless they were true accounts. If the Gospel records were untrue, many witnesses would have stood up and denied their accuracy. However, the records of the first century reveal that no one denied the facts about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. In fact, all of these ancient historical records confirm the truth of the Gospels. 

Other New Testament Quotes Identified in the Scrolls 

In 1971, a Spanish biblical scholar named Jose O'Callaghan studied some of the small fragments of scrolls discovered in Cave Seven at Qumran. He was looking for correspondences between these fragments of Greek scrolls and the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that was widely used by Jesus and the apostles. 

These fragments are quite small containing only small portions of each verse. After almost two thousand years, the elements and insects have significantly damaged these manuscripts. In some cases only small fragments containing parts of a verse on three or four lines remain from an original scroll. It required considerable detective work to determine the precise text in these tiny fragments. 

One day he carefully examined several small scroll fragments located in a photo page in The Discoveries of the Judean Desert of Jordan. To his great surprise O'Callaghan noticed that several did not fit any Old Testament text. These fragments were listed as "Fragments not identified." To his amazement Dr. O'Callaghan found that these Greek language fragments bore an uncanny resemblance to several verses in the New Testament. He read the Greek words "beget" and a word that could be "Gennesaret," a word for the Sea of Galilee. The fragment containing "Gennesaret" appears to be a quotation of the passage referring to the feeding of the five thousand found in Mark 6:52,53 which states: "For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened. And when they had passed over, they came into the land of Gennesaret, and drew to the shore." 

If these texts are actually portions of these Christian writings they would be the earliest New Testament texts ever discovered. The New York Times responded, "If O'Callaghan's theory is accepted, it would prove that at least one of the Gospels, that of St. Mark, was written only a few years after the death of Jesus." The Los Angeles Times headlined, "Nine New Testament fragments dated A.D. 50 to A.D. 100 have been discovered in a Dead Sea Cave." It stated that "if validated, [they] constitute the most sensational biblical trove uncovered in recent times." 

Other Scroll Fragments and the New Testament 

Dr. Jose O'Callaghan ultimately identified eight different scroll fragments from Cave Seven that appear to be quotes from New Testament passages. The scholarly magazine Bible Review ran a fascinating article on Dr. O'Callaghan, these scrolls, and their possible connection with the New Testament in an article in December, 1995. 

The fragments appeared to O'Callaghan to be portions of the following verses from the Gospels and Paul's Epistles: 
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself. . ." (Mark 4:28). 
"And he saw them toiling in rowing; . . ." (Mark 6:48). 
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar. . ." (Mark 12:17) 
"And when they had eaten enough, they lightened the ship. . ." (Acts 27:38). 
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. . ." (Romans 5:11-12). 
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness. . ." (1 Timothy 3:16). 
"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer. . ." (James 1:23-24). 

As one example of Dr. O'Callaghan's study, he examined a small scroll fragment known as 7Q5 that contained only twenty Greek letters on five lines of text. Many of the thousands of scroll fragments that were successfully identified from the Qumran site are equally small. Another scroll scholar, Carsten Thiede, agrees with O'Callaghan that portions of the Mark 6:52,53 passage appears in this scroll fragment. While other scroll scholars disagree with the identification of this fragment as a verse from the New Testament they do admit that almost all of the scrolls found in Cave Seven were written in the period between 50 B.C. and A.D. 50, which is consistent with the time of the writing of the Gospel of Mark. 

Naturally, as with other matters connected with the controversial Dead Sea Scrolls, many scholars disagreed with the conclusions of Dr. O'Callaghan. The debate still continues twenty years later. At this stage we cannot be certain that O'Callaghan's conclusion is correct. More work needs to be done. However, the recent publication of the discovery of Scroll 4Q246 and its identical reference to "the Son of God" as found in Luke 1:32 and 35 provide strong support for the possibility that these fragments are related to these New Testament passages. In addition, I have great hopes that the new archeological exploration of recently detected caves at Qumran may provide new evidence including New Testament references. Many of these mysteries will be solved when the final four hundred unpublished scrolls are finally published in the next few years. The new dig at Qumran may also uncover additional scrolls that will help us understand more clearly the Messianic beliefs of this group of religious men and women who lived at this desert site during the time when Jesus walked the earth. 

When we consider the total amount of evidence that confirms the biblical record about Jesus of Nazareth we can have confidence that we know more about the life and resurrection of Christ than we know about any other person in the ancient world. God has not left us in darkness concerning the truthfulness of the miracles, prophecies and teaching of His Son, Jesus Christ. 

For more information, visit Grant Jeffrey Ministries. 
www.exchangedlife.com/ 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 7:01 pm  
To:  ALL   (4 of 57)  
 
  42.4 in reply to 42.1  
 
Here are some more links about Ancient Christian Bibles 
www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html 
Internet Christian Leadership - Early Christian Documents 

www.wholesomewords.org/biography/biorptyndale.html 
William Tyndale1494-1536 Father of the English Bible 

www.stolaf.edu/people/kchanson/ancweb.html 
Ancient World Sites 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/5/2001 10:45 am  
To:  ALL   (5 of 57)  
 
  42.5 in reply to 42.4  
 

Thought you might find this interesting 
Center of the Bible 

What is the shortest chapter in the Bible? (Answer - Psalms 117) 

What is the longest chapter in the Bible? (Answer - Psalms 119) 

Which chapter is in the center of the Bible (Answer - Psalms 118) 

Fact: There are 594 chapters before Psalms 118 

Fact: There are 594 chapters after Psalms 118 

Add these numbers up and you get 1188 

What is the center verse in the Bible? (Answer - Psalms 118:8) 

Does this verse say something significant about God's perfect 
will for our lives? The next time someone says they would like to 
find God's perfect will for their lives and that they want to be in 
the center of His will, just send them to the center of His Word! 

Psalms 118:8 (NKJV) "It is better to trust in the LORD than to 
put confidence in man." 

Now isn't that odd how this worked out (or was God in the center 
of it)? 

*Source unknown




David A. Brown
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  From:  Corkybob   6/12/2001 9:01 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 57)  
 
  42.6 in reply to 42.1  
 
Dear David, 
What I don't understand is that if the Septuigent is the entire old testiment, then why is it that Protestants do not except it entirely. They leave out Judith, Maccabees, Tobit, Barauch, and Belle and the dragon, Suzanna, and 2 more paragraphs in it. Indeed, the dead Sea Scrolls contain hebrew manuscripts of Maccabees, Judith, and Tobit. The Septuigent is the Lod Testiment that Catholics use which has been mislabeled as the Apochiphia. The Apochiphia are writtings that neither Protestant nor Catholic accept such as the Gospel of Thomas, or the Gospel of Pontius Pilot. 
Pax 
John S. Cork
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 10:45 am  
To:  Corkybob   (7 of 57)  
 
  42.7 in reply to 42.6  
 
The writing that some call the gospel of Thomas is not a Dead Sea Scroll Document. The Gospel of Matthew is a Dead Sea Scroll Document found in the caves with other scrolls.
I am going to find the names of the books that are the Jewish Cannon of the Old Testament. I dont think Maccabees and the other Apocryphal books are a part of the Jewish Bible either, Although they are Jewish History Books. The early King James Bible did included them, but then separated them as History books and not as Bible books.

The Bible is complete for man to know and to have a relationship with God. The Bible is not lacking in any information regarding what God desires us to know about Him.

John 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they (Scriptures) are they which Testify of Me (Jesus).

Life is in Jesus not in words on paper.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Corkybob   6/12/2001 7:03 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 57)  
 
  42.8 in reply to 42.7  
 
Dear David, 
Neither the Gospel of Matthew or the Gospel of Thomas are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrollsonly contain the books of the Septuigent, that is the Palestinian Canon and those of Tobit, Maccabees, and I think Judith. As far as the Jewish Canon it is no longer reasonable to assume that this is the canon of Christ. The reason is the fall of the Temple in 70 AD. The Romans distroyed everything, even the foundation, just as Christ had predicted in Matt 24. In 90 AD the Jewish community tried to restart and to start with they asked the Christian Community for their Old Testiment. Their was a general disagreement on the canon so the Jews called a council of their own to decided the matter. What happened is thatsince their was no leadership for the Jews, the Council of Japa ended in a stalemate. Those Palestinian Jews excepted what is called the ProtoCanticle books and the Greek Jews (non-Hebrew speaking Jews) kept the Dudiocanticle books. The greater amount of Jewish converts to Christianity came from the Greek Jewish sector, thus when they cme over to Christianity they brought their scriptures with them. This is why if you take a census you will find the majority will accept the Protocanticle. At the basie of the Argument was that the Dudiocanticle books (those that were not excepted by the Palesinian Jews) were said not to have been written in Hebrew (Arimaic). With the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls proof is in the scrolls, because those "extra" books and paragraphs were written in mostly Arimaic with some Hebrew mixed in. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 7:11 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (9 of 57)  
 
  42.9 in reply to 42.8  
 
You might want to visit some of the Links at the beginning of this string. 
The Gospel book of Matthew is indeed a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls and so is the Gospel Book of Mark. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Corkybob   6/13/2001 7:32 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (10 of 57)  
 
  42.10 in reply to 42.9  
 
Dear David, 
Searching the web I came upon "Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran" using the search engine on Yahoo. The address is 
http//home.flash.net/~hoseton/deadsea/deadsea.html. 
Go to the menu on the side to inventory of Caves. Go then to Cave Seven (7Q) 7Q1-7Q19. It states that there were greek fragments in this cave. That there was speculation that it was New Testiment fragments but that this is a very long reach. It then says that evidence points to something intirely diffeant. 

Click to Ernest A. Muro Jr. There you will find that peiced together using the fibers of the Papyrus, one then forms a page. It apears to be that of I Enoch 103:3-4 and 7-8. 

The idea of it being new testiment is problematic. 

#1 The community at Qumran was Jewish, not Christian. This can be found by the other scrolls. It had writtings on jewish rituals. 

#2 The span of these scrolls span from about 200 BC to 68 AD. This is before the Christian era. 

#3 Only Mark and Luke Gospels were written in Greek at this time. Matthew appears to have been written in Hebrew (Arimeic) at this time. Papius states that he saw Matthew written in Hebrew (Which could be interpted as also Arimeic) in about 120 AD. At that time, 68 AD, the Gospels were not a set, but were the property of the respected churches. Matthew was in the Church of Jerusalem, Mark in Rome, Luke in Greece, if his Gospel had been written at that time. 

What it comes down to is if there is a rational explaination, or a far flung one, most of the time the rational explaination will surfice. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 10:14 am  
To:  Corkybob   (11 of 57)  
 
  42.11 in reply to 42.10  
 
Following is a reprint from Post 3 of this string.It mentions scrolls found in cave #4 and other caves. 
*** 
If these texts are actually portions of these Christian writings they would be the earliest New Testament texts ever discovered. The New York Times responded, "If O'Callaghan's theory is accepted, it would prove that at least one of the Gospels, that of St. Mark, was written only a few years after the death of Jesus." The Los Angeles Times headlined, "Nine New Testament fragments dated A.D. 50 to A.D. 100 have been discovered in a Dead Sea Cave." It stated that "if validated, [they] constitute the most sensational biblical trove uncovered in recent times." 

Other Scroll Fragments and the New Testament 
Dr. Jose O'Callaghan ultimately identified eight different scroll fragments from Cave Seven that appear to be quotes from New Testament passages. The scholarly magazine Bible Review ran a fascinating article on Dr. O'Callaghan, these scrolls, and their possible connection with the New Testament in an article in December, 1995. 
The fragments appeared to O'Callaghan to be portions of the following verses from the Gospels and Paul's Epistles: 
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself. . ." (Mark 4:28). 
"And he saw them toiling in rowing; . . ." (Mark 6:48). 
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar. . ." (Mark 12:17) 
"And when they had eaten enough, they lightened the ship. . ." (Acts 27:38). 
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. . ." (Romans 5:11-12). 
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness. . ." (1 Timothy 3:16). 
"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer. . ." (James 1:23-24). 
**** 






David A. Brown
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  From:  Corkybob   6/13/2001 7:29 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 57)  
 
  42.12 in reply to 42.11  
 
Dear David, 
Point being is that Dr. O'Callaghan's theory is just that, theroy. Most of the Dead Sea Scroll's team suggest otherwise. It would not make sense to have Christian Writtings in a Jewish community. Christianity started out as an urban religion. Christianity was centered in the cities, not in communions, and as I have stated, Matthew would not have been written in Greek at this time. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 7:56 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (13 of 57)  
 
  42.13 in reply to 42.12  
 
I think the scrolls and scroll fragments speak for themselves.
The fact remains, Quotes from New Testament Bible books are found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Early Christianity almost completely permeated Israel.

A leading Rabbi in N.Y. believes that the Jewish Passover Cedar is more Christian than Jewish and that it owes its Christian message in the Passover to the permeation of Christianity in the few years after the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus.

For example The Passover bread is unleavened, striped and pierced; the wine is mingled with water, three slices of bread (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are covered on the table but only the middle bread is displayed and it is broken.

The book of Acts records that many Temple priests became Christians.

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of priests were obedient to the faith.






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 8:00 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (14 of 57)  
 
  42.14 in reply to 42.12  
 
Also the Sign/charges Jesus was accused of were written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin, the three languages of the day. 
Why couldn't Matthew be in Greek?




David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/14/2001 1:25 am  
To:  Corkybob   (15 of 57)  
 
  42.15 in reply to 42.12  
 
I agree with everything you've said so far. Do you know that most of the Dead Sea material won't even be made public by the Isralie government? If you buy any current book about the dead sea scrolls (which will suprise and amaze you if you haven't), you'll soon note that the author states that there is still material to be translated and is, therefore, not included in the book. 
If I'm not correct, weren't several of the scrolls carbon dated to about 100 AD?


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/17/2001 10:16 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 57)  
 
  42.16 in reply to 42.14  
 
Dear David, 
You have to remember that Christianity came from Judism. Many Christian rituals came from Judism thus there is a very corralation between teh two, Christianity (at least by christian ideas) is the new Isreal, the new covenant. The Hebrew scriptures were written in only 1 language, and that was Hebrew, which the Jews believed was the language of God. There for any scriptures originally written in any other language was not from God (according to the Jews). Being written in one language also had it's avantages in that their wasn't any misconceptions or differances in interptation. That is until about 200 BC when those Jews who could not speak Hebrew asked that the Scriptures be changed into the Greek Language. These Hebrews were theJews in Alexandria Eygpt, which numbered more than all of the Jews in Palestine together. 6 scholars from every tribe came to Alexandria to translate, thus the name Septuigent (Meaning 70). After the fall of the Temple all of the writtings were lost. Thsi is when tehy went to the Christians in 90 AD to ask for the scriptures. Thsi is also when the problem arose in that the Palestinian Jews refused to accept Tobit, Judith, Eccleasticus (Sirach), 1 & 2 Maccabees, Baruch,and Wisdom (of Solomon), and 3 chapters, belle and the Dragon, Suzanna (Both in Daniel), and the last which slips me. 

When Matthew wrote his Gospel he wrote it in hebrew because he was speaking to the Jews in Palestine. At that time they would probablly would not have excepted it in Greek. When the Greek Era of the Church came about the Church (Bisops fo the Church) wanted to unify the Gospels thus have everything in Greek. This was fairly simple since the majority of the sacred writtings were in Greek. As time went on to the modern age the concensis was that the Gospels were all written in Greek until about 382 AD when Damasis I, Bishop of Rome, decreed that the Christians should put in Canon all those scriptures that were divinely inspired thus no one could claim the Gospel of Thomas, or the Gospel of Barthalemew was divinely inspired. He then decreed that the scriptures for the West would be written in Latin. What shook the Christian community up into revising their slant on history was when achioligist found writtings of St. Papius who wrote in about 140 AD that he had seen a manuscript of Matthew in Hebrew. Up to this time all of the scripture scholars just assumed that it was in Greek. 

As far as the Dead Sea Scrolls goes, the carbon dating of 100 AD is close enough. The coummunity of Qumran was distroyed in 66-67 AD. Matthew was not translated into Greek until about 100 AD. Thus if thre were Christian writting with the Dead Sea Scrolls, they wouldn't have been in Greek. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/17/2001 10:18 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (17 of 57)  
 
  42.17 in reply to 42.15  
 
Dear Doc, 
I thought that all of the Dead Sea Scrolls were already placed on microfilm a long time ago. I understand that the Isreally Government would not let the public have access to the originals, but would let them have access to copies. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/17/2001 3:49 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (18 of 57)  
 
  42.18 in reply to 42.17  
 
Some of the scrolls are in such poor condition that, even with all the technology we've got, we still can't do reasonable translations of them. However, I'll admit that I haven't read anything about the Scrolls published after 1993 so that might have changed. 
Either way, the Isralie government has been real tight lipped about it. The fact that you have to have premission from the govennment to even see the originals makes me weary, espically when they stated in a Newsweek article that "the information within the scrolls could drastically change mankind's views on the Bible". Several of the original translators working on the scrolls wrote books which point out many differences in what the public got when compared to the originals. Also, the Isralie government tried to censor and ban the publication of any book written by the original team working on the scrolls. You might have heard about this on the news a long time ago since it did draw a lot of media attention. 

When half the people who saw the scrolls loose all faith in their religion you've got to wonder.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 7:34 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (19 of 57)  
 
  42.19 in reply to 42.18  
 
<<When half the people who saw the scrolls loose all faith in their religion you've got to wonder.>> 
Ive got to wonder why you post such outlandish claims without any documentation? 

http://www2.judaica.org/pj/deadsea/dss1.html 
Dead Sea Scroll Exhibits 

http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/dss.html 
Dead Sea Scroll Original Team 

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html 
25 Facts about the Dead Sea Scrolls 






David A. Brown
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   From:  Dr_Shock   6/18/2001 3:33 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 57)  
 
  42.20 in reply to 42.19  
 
You really try. I've got to give you an "A" for effort but sometimes I have to wonder how much thought you put into your arguments. It took years to translate the scrolls and the original team never got to see the completely finished product. However, it still made them have their doubts. If I do recall, one of them actually had a bit of a personal religious crisis just based on how most of the scrolls couldn't be translated. What you'll want to look for are books not about the discovery or translation, but rather the mass amount of drama which was experienced because of the find. I've got a book somewhere regarding the "dramatic experience" but its going to take me a little while to find it. 
Addressing the first link: http://www2.judaica.org/pj/deadsea/dss1.html 
Yes, the scrolls were put on exhibit, but not all of them. Most of them are kept locked away in temperature and environmentally controlled quarters. Secondly, you'd have to have computer equipment (as later teams did) to read most of them. Several imaging enhancing programs were designed strictly for the purpose of deciphering the scrolls. Thirdly, you'd have to be able to translate ancient Hebrew in a VERY quick fashion in order to get anything important out of such an exhibit. I know of no layman who can do this. You'd just have to take "their word for it". And I love how all this stuff available to the public is released by Israeli government controlled groups like Israel Antiquities Authority! As if its not edited for content! 

The second link: http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/dss.html 
This whole page is nothing but a timeline stating the modern history of the scrolls, the most significant of which aren't even from the original team and don't tell of any of their emotions on the subject. Most of the timeline on this page address old Jewish beliefs or historical accounts with very few tie-ins to the Bible in a religious way. They even talk about fragments of the Book of Enoch being found in the scrolls (Enoch is Quaballah, I hope you know.) The link is nothing more than a well thought out, completely scientific analysis of the scrolls with no Christian overtones supporting your argument. Most of this timeline also support Christianity as being a rogue religion. Its also a rather good portrayal of how many of the scrolls passed between so many mundane hands before a real scientist even got their mitts on them. 

The third link: http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html 
A nice set of facts that have already been stated in this thread. Unfortunately, as the link says itself, "Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament." On well. Once again, it states that Christianity was evolved form Judaism which also makes Jewish texts significant to the Bible even though you already said that the Torah is all "folklore". 

Try again. All your links did was prove that the Jews were right all along. (Although they were very good for someone wanting to begin research on the scrolls.) 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2001 9:33 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (21 of 57)  
 
  42.21 in reply to 42.20  
 
The Dead Sea Scroll Links were provided to give continued information on the topic. 
I dont agree with everything that is on the links I posted. But then I am willing to post things I disagree with in order to keep the discussion in at least some informed capacity. 

I posted at the beginning of the topic the Information that I Believe is most Valid. Like most links these links have valid info and then some speculation. 

And the links are an Excellent source of Basic info; but they are not fully representing the Issue of Greek texts with New Testament writing found in the caves. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/18/2001 7:13 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (22 of 57)  
 
  42.22 in reply to 42.20  
 
Isn't it true of what we do have the scrolls, most tell the tale of bible. And yet a bunch don't either. But isn't there still 1/3 of the scrolls either A.) Unreleased. B.) Untranslatable C.) Destroyed?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  S_Fragger   6/19/2001 12:01 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (23 of 57)  
 
  42.23 in reply to 42.22  
 
You're right old buddy, it's better to have no information at all than basing your ideas on something thousand years old and only partially deciphered. 


- 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/19/2001 7:48 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (24 of 57)  
 
  42.24 in reply to 42.18  
 
Dear Doc, 
What I think that is the problem with the Isreali Government is the presence of those 7 books written in Hebrew. At the council of Japa the reasoning for the Palestinian contengent of not excepting the Septuigent was that their contention that the 7 books and 3 paragraphs in the Septuigent, not accepted were originally written in Greek. If a work was originally written in another language it would stay in that language, or at least would not have been translated into Hebrew. this would mean that if the Jews were to follow their traditions, they would have to accept the Spetuigent. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/19/2001 12:35 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (25 of 57)  
 
  42.25 in reply to 42.22  
 
Well, all of the scrolls are supposed to be not only translated but "released to the public". I doubt this because all the scrolls I'm personally intrested in (Such as the Book of Archer and the Book of Enoch) are unfindable. Many articles have been written by scholars stating that these two books were, in fact, part of the scroll collection... But try finding either pictures or translations of them. 
The CD-ROM releases of the scrolls are totally unimpressive and very inaccurate in many ways. The CD contains multimedia "pictures" of the scrolls, although you'll be quick to note that many of the pictures are of the same 20 or so scrolls over and over again. I can understand that the scrolls are in poor condition and need to be kept from degenerating further, but we've got the technology today to preserve them indefinately. The Isralie Government is natorious for censoring all written material in their country and they're the ones in current possession of the scrolls. They won't even let the Church of Rome study all the scrolls in private! I've heard that its almost impossible to find an unedited book anywhere in Isralie controlled territory. This is why I'm weary.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/19/2001 12:38 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (26 of 57)  
 
  42.26 in reply to 42.24  
 
That was all after the 6 Day War, right?


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 8:10 am  
To:  ALL   (27 of 57)  
 
  42.27 in reply to 42.1  
 
Source www.mrm.org 
Dead Sea Scrolls May Come to Utah for Games 
The possibility that some of the Dead Sea Scrolls will be exhibited at the Utah Olympic Games next winter look promising, as officials from the LDS Church and BYU have negotiated with Jewish authorities from Israel. Besides several important Dead Sea Scrolls, the exhibit would also feature the Leningrad Codex, which is the oldest copy of the Hebrew Bible in existence and has not left the Russian National Museum since the 1930s. The Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered more than half a century ago at Qumran, a site located near the Dead Sea in Israel and once inhabited by a Jewish sect called the Essenes, have been an invaluable source to scholars. In fact, the discovery of these manuscripts, which are some of the oldest known Old Testament manuscripts, show the accuracy of the Old Testament that is read by Jews, Christians, and Mormons alike. Until 10 years ago many of the scrolls were accessible only to certain scholars who were secretly studying them, but photocopies of the scrolls were finally released in the early 1990s due to immense pressure from scholars who were not part of the original research. Displaying such items will certainly give the Mormon Church worldwide credibility in the public relations push to make Mormonism look more like a biblically-based religion. (Salt Lake Tribune, 6/22/01) 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/1/2001 1:01 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 57)  
 
  42.28 in reply to 42.27  
 
Are copies of any Gnostic or Quaballic texts expected to be shown? If so I might just have to take a trip to Utah and hire me a translator.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/1/2001 2:50 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (29 of 57)  
 
  42.29 in reply to 42.28  
 
No, I think the Mormon attempt is to Look like a Legitimate Religion. The Gnostic writings would defeat that purpose, and further label the Mormons as holders of many unauthentic writings. 
You do know that the Early Church used the same 5 compartment cabinet that the Jews used to hold the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament). Along with the 5 books of Moses the Church kept the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and the Book of Acts. 

The Gnostic writings Have Never, and Were Never, considered a Part of the Word of God and therefore a part of the Bible. It is the Gnostic writings that come Much later then the Writings of the Disciples. These other sources have Always been excluded from Authentic Inspired Scripture. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/1/2001 4:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 57)  
 
  42.30 in reply to 42.29  
 
Yes, but the Gnostic texts are still a good historical read, reguardless. The oldest Gnostic text (The Book of Thomas, I believe) is one of the oldest known "Biblical" writings. 
Though why they wouldn't show Quaballah (if they don't) is beyond me.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/1/2001 4:29 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (31 of 57)  
 
  42.31 in reply to 42.30  
 
Now heres a question. These scrolls are possibly some of the most protected documents in the history of the world. Only a very small handfull of people are allowed to see them up close. And then even if they are to translate, usually they are only given very short passages at a time so that one person can never learn God's true word. And now it appears that all of a sudden any Joe can walk in off of the street and try to translate if they want? Sounds a little too good to be true.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/2/2001 7:39 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (32 of 57)  
 
  42.32 in reply to 42.31  
 
I know. It makes me more weary than ever.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 8:28 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (33 of 57)  
 
  42.33 in reply to 42.11  
 
If these texts are actually portions of these Christian writings they would be the earliest New Testament texts ever discovered. The New York Times responded, "If O'Callaghan's theory is accepted, it would prove that at least one of the Gospels, that of St. Mark, was written only a few years after the death of Jesus." The Los Angeles Times headlined, "Nine New Testament fragments dated A.D. 50 to A.D. 100 have been discovered in a Dead Sea Cave." It stated that "if validated, [they] constitute the most sensational biblical trove uncovered in recent times." 
I count 3 "ifs" in that paragraph. Seems like a lot to be claiming as fact.






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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2001 9:15 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (34 of 57)  
 
  42.34 in reply to 42.33  
 
The 'if's" are from the L.A. Times writer, not wanting to acknowledge the significant Bible finds in the Dead sea Scrolls. 
Notice there is not a follow up article by the L.A. Times. Just one well maybe article. 

"if" they had followed up on the article they would have to of reported on the Dead Sea Scroll Matches to the New Testament more thoroughly, and they apparently didnt want to do that. 

*If I had 15 or so direct quotes of rare Names, Places, Events, and Concepts that are Only written in the New Testament Bible then you have to conclude that I have Read the New Testament Bible. 

And in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Last Scroll was written on and buried before 70 A.D., Because that Community was wiped out by the Roman Army Soldiers about 70 A.D. during a Jewish rebellion against Rome. 

The Only Conclusion is that Much of the New Testament Bible was written before 70 A.D. and it was widely Distributed and available for people to Read and Quote. 

Which is physical proof of Exactly what the Bible Claims to be. Firsthand written accounts from the people who witnessed the events and places that the Bible Records. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 12:07 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 57)  
 
  42.35 in reply to 42.13  
 
The fact remains, Quotes from New Testament Bible books are found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Might you be wagging the tail with the dog? Is it not possible that quotes that were present in the Dead Sea Scrolls made their way into the NT, because they were part of common culture and philosophy and had a common root much earlier? Stating that "Quotes FROM the NT..." implies that the NT was the SOURCE and the DS Scrolls were the targets of those particular quotes, which doesn't hold a whole lotta water as a theory.






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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 12:14 pm  
To:  Corkybob   (36 of 57)  
 
  42.36 in reply to 42.10  
 
I just wanted to let you know that you're doing a good job with your posts. Thanks for the info, and if you could, post references when you can please.




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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 12:18 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (37 of 57)  
 
  42.37 in reply to 42.18  
 
Also, the Isralie government tried to censor and ban the publication of any book written by the original team working on the scrolls. 
This is the same sort of thing that happened to the original team that investigated the Shroud of Tourin. 

Coincidence?






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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2001 12:37 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (38 of 57)  
 
  42.38 in reply to 42.35  
 
You havent read what New Testament Bible Quotes are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. 
What is quoted is often Events not Ideas. 

The Event of crossing the Gennesareth Sea (New Testament term for the see of Galilee), Is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

And other events. 

Events can only be quoted After they happen. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 57)  
 
  42.39 in reply to 42.34  
 
The Only Conclusion is that Much of the New Testament Bible was written before 70 A.D. and it was widely Distributed and available for people to Read and Quote. 
???

I don't understand how your mind works. Even if you don't happen to agree, anyone can see that this is not the ONLY conclusion. And since most of the world disagrees with your position, it is more obvious and probable that the DSS preceded the NT, and the inspiration for the writings of the DSS were ALSO the inspiration for a segment of the common quotes in what would become the NT.

There is no need for conflict in this matter, but it is highly illogical to make the statement that yours is the ONLY conclusion.






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   From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/2/2001 12:46 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (40 of 57)  
 
  42.40 in reply to 42.38  
 
The point of replication of known quotes, events and beliefs to validate still stands. Hindsight is 20/20.


 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/2/2001 12:54 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (41 of 57)  
 
  42.41 in reply to 42.39  
 
I used Only as a matter of Emphases, I should have chosen a better word. 
But I see that you are still missing the Point that Events and Ideas that correlate to the Events are much of the New Testament matching quotes. 

You are Way Wrong to conclude that Christianity is an Idea. 

Christianity is a Series of Events: 

Virgin Birth of Jesus 
Earthly Ministry of Jesus 
Cross/Crucifixion of Jesus giving His life for our sins 
3 days and 3 nights in the tomb 
Resurrection of Jesus in New Spiritual Body 
Eyewitness accounts of Resurrected Jesus 
Spiritual Born Again events of the Christ believers 
Resurrected Jesus Commissioning Christians to Tell the World 
The Church going into All the World 





David A. Brown
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  From:  kyop    7/3/2001 7:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (42 of 57)  
 
  42.42 in reply to 42.34  
 
David: 
Read this: 

****** 
. A piece of scroll has recently been shown to contain a phrase very similar to one from the Gospel of St Mark. If such a relationship could be established, it would constitute the first link between the Essenes and the Early Christians. 
****** 

then compare it to your interpretation: 

****** 

And in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Last Scroll was written on and buried before 70 A.D., Because that Community was wiped out by the Roman Army Soldiers about 70 A.D. during a Jewish rebellion against Rome. 

The Only Conclusion is that Much of the New Testament Bible was written before 70 A.D. and it was widely Distributed and available for people to Read and Quote. 

Which is physical proof of Exactly what the Bible Claims to be. Firsthand written accounts from the people who witnessed the events and places that the Bible Records.<< 

How can you extrapolate from a scrap to a tome? Doesn't it greatly reduce any credibility that you might have on this (and other) subject(s)? 

I know you desperately WANT what you say to be true but it isn't. 

Matthew, Mark and Luke are called Synoptics for a reason. The theory concerning a common source for the Synoptics (ie. Quelle) exists for a reason. 

There can be countless conclusions drawn using the scanty scraps of text that are loosely related to NT writings. I for instance, could just as well conclude that some of the DSS provide data on construction of a steam engine. 

But I'm not desperate to prove something that I've already decided is true. I'm just trying to find out what is true sans Hamburger Helper. 

The majority of critical biblical scholars date the Synoptics beginning (with Mark) about the time that the scrolls were buried. Matthew and Luke were most likely written after the scrolls were buried and their owners killed. And of course, let's not forget that they were written by people who never met Jesus (just to sweeten the pot). 

Note that I did not say, "...the only conclusion that could be drawn..." That would be sloppy reasoning and an attempt to cram my agenda down some innocent's throat. 

p.s. Your OT dating leaves something to be desired as well. It won't do to cut off the authorship dates ~400 B.C. Oh, unless you were trying some weak defense of the alleged prophecy contained therein. As an example, the Book of Daniel contains some excellent "prophecy" and curiously enough, it gets more and more accurate as you approach the 160's BC. Then it gets totally innacurate. Guess the date of its writing. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/3/2001 9:34 am  
To:  kyop   unread  (43 of 57)  
 
  42.43 in reply to 42.42  
 
Ezekiel the Prophet Lived and Prophesied in 593 B.C.
The Prophet Ezekiel mentions Daniel a Couple of times.

Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel and Job..

I dont have to guess when the book of Daniel was written. It was written about 595 B.C. 

Jesus called Daniel a Prophet.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet..

You claim Inaccuracies in the book of Daniel:

What are they??






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/3/2001 9:44 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (44 of 57)  
 
  42.44 in reply to 42.37  
 
Yep, same thing happened with the Shroud, which is now known to only be about 1000 years old. 
When it comes to religion, censorship is key to mantaining belief.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/3/2001 1:55 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (45 of 57)  
 
  42.45 in reply to 42.44  
 
DR_SHOCK wrote:
When it comes to religion, censorship is key to mantaining belief.
  I would not agree with this as a general principle, but it does seem that we know someone (David), whose name (David) I won't mention (David), who (David) seems to believe and practice this principle.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

bob-blaylock.nospam@usa.net  

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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/3/2001 3:26 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (46 of 57)  
 
  42.46 in reply to 42.43  
 
Ezekiel the Prophet Lived and Prophesied in 593 B.C. 
The Prophet Ezekiel mentions Daniel a Couple of times. 

Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel and Job.. 

I dont have to guess when the book of Daniel was written. It was written about 595 B.C. 

Jesus called Daniel a Prophet. 

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet.. 

You claim Inaccuracies in the book of Daniel: 

What are they?? 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 

Alright class, lesson 1. 

Daniel was a common name. 

Part 1 - Daniel, the name, appears a number of times in the bible. Not unlike the name Joseph... though with how long people lived in the bible, it is quite possible he lived to be three or four thousand years old! Thus being the same Daniel... not! 

Part 2 - None of the gospels seem to agree on details, the big one comming to mind being the last words Jesus spoke on his splinter. (The Cross) 

Part 3 - The earliest known copy of Matthew was written in 385 AD, quite a few years AFTER Jesus died, supposedly came back, then left on a big cloud to go into heaven! Not exactly a first generation account. 

Part 4 - Generally when people say about they do not give it in estimates of down to 5 years. Also, is this the book of Daniel from Jack Van Impe? The one that said the world ended three years ago? 

Al Kupone 



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Edited 7/3/2001 6:30:42 PM ET by KUPONE 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/3/2001 3:29 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (47 of 57)  
 
  42.47 in reply to 42.45  
 
When it comes to religion, censorship is key to mantaining belief. 
I would not agree with this as a general principle, but it does seem that we know someone (David), whose name (David) I 
won't mention (David), who (David) seems to believe and practice this principle. 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 

Subliminal man strikes again! YEEHAW! 

Al Kupone 

Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth... I guess David's off that list!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/3/2001 7:34 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (48 of 57)  
 
  42.48 in reply to 42.46  
 
There are only a couple of Daniels mentioned in the Bible the two or three others are listed in genealogy lists. 
There is Only one Daniel referred to as Daniel without the providing of genealogy info and that is the Prophet Daniel. 

The Prophet Ezekiel and the Prophet Daniel, Probably knew each other. They were both Captives taken into exile from Israel into Babylon. Daniel went in the first group of captives and Ezekiel went as a part of the second of three groups of Jewish captives. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/3/2001 9:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (49 of 57)  
 
  42.49 in reply to 42.48  
 
Alright, then how did they live in 595 BC considering when Babylon fell, even Assyro-Babylon had long since falled at 595 BC. 
Babylon was not rebuilt after AB (Or is that B2) and that fell before the Greek Empire or even before Massadonia. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   7/11/2001 12:15 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (50 of 57)  
 
  42.50 in reply to 42.18  
 
Also, the Isralie government tried to censor and ban the publication of any book written by the original team working on the scrolls.<<< 
Do you have any information about that? I did notice a lot of books/websites disappeared awhile back, and I was curious.


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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/11/2001 4:11 pm  
To:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   (51 of 57)  
 
  42.51 in reply to 42.50  
 
There are a couple books written on the subject. Some are better than others. There is one called "History of the Dead Sea Scrolls" or soemthing to that effect (a very generic book title and can't remember the author) that goes inot great detail about the Isralie Government's involvement. If you got to Barnes & Noble online and do a search for it, you should be able to find it based on the little book description they give you. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. 
If you look on the web, you'll probably turn up something, although, in my personal opinion, nothing beats hard copy. =) 

Despite this, its not hard to find websites (most of the time in English) by which depict the restriction which the Isralies have on freedom of speech espically when it comes to written text. An exchange student from Israel once told me that he was amazed that American professors allowed him to quote the Qur'an in a philosphy essay.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   7/12/2001 3:37 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (52 of 57)  
 
  42.52 in reply to 42.51  
 
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific- I'm looking for more information on the censorship. I actually have several version of DSS translations.

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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/12/2001 4:42 pm  
To:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   (53 of 57)  
 
  42.53 in reply to 42.52  
 
There is a book called "Conspiracy of the Scrolls" which, while having some odd theories, does talk about the censorship in detail (the one I listed in the previous post does the same, it just isn't a whole book about it). If I can dig up any of the old links I had on the topic (which I think I can) I'll be sure to send them your way. 
Most good books which talk about the recent histor (last 100 years) of the scrolls always talk a little about some sort of Isralie conspiracy.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   7/12/2001 5:08 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (54 of 57)  
 
  42.54 in reply to 42.53  
 
I know there's been some funky stuff, but I thought it was generally more of a nationalistic thing or a power struggle than an outright conspiracy, but it does seem that after all this time, they'd get over it. 
I'll look for the book, sounds like a good read.


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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/12/2001 5:22 pm  
To:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   (55 of 57)  
 
  42.55 in reply to 42.54  
 
You'd think that, after a good 7000 years of human civilization, we'd grow out of stupid conflicts. Its a matter of perspective, I suppose. Originally, a good deal of the scrolls weren't in Jewish hands and, during the Six Day War, what do you think were the first things the Israelites took for themselves? Yes, basically its a power struggle, but in the end it comes down to Jihad and the preservation of belief through Jihad. 
As an American, I see any sort of censorship a conspiracy. Especially when it has to do with the history of the world as we know it. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Alternative Religions Guide (JENNIFER417)   7/12/2001 10:49 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (56 of 57)  
 
  42.56 in reply to 42.55  
 
As an American, I see any sort of censorship a conspiracy<< 
Good point.


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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/26/2002 12:41 pm  
To:  ALL   (57 of 57)  
 
  42.57 in reply to 42.1  
 
Source www.JPost.com (Jerusalem Post)
Friday Jul. 26, 2002 
Search on for more Dead Sea Scrolls
By HAIM SHAPIRO


Archeologists this week began searching for caves that may contain additional Dead Sea Scrolls, using sophisticated hi-tech equipment that explores under the surface of the Judean Desert. All the known Dead Sea Scrolls have been published. 

Dr. Magen Broshi, director of the Shrine of the Book at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, the repository for the scrolls, said yesterday that he is heading a team using ground-penetrating radar in the Qumran area at the northwestern end of the Dead Sea to see if there are undiscovered caves which might hold more scrolls. 

"We are happy to find anything. We are not sure of finding any scrolls, but we will be very happy if we do," he said in a telephone interview from Qumran. 

This week, he said, they had found something they thought was a cave, but they later found it was a man-made hole. However, that, too, must be investigated, he said. 

The researchers have already mapped the ancient Qumran cemetery, which they discovered holds some 1,200 graves. Here they found the first zinc coffin to be used anywhere in the world, he noted.
They also found the skeletons of two Jewish women, both some 2,000 years old. The remains, he said, were at the edge of the cemetery where Beduin had removed the bones from the graves in order to bury their own dead. 

Broshi said that the equipment, worth $500,000, is being loaned from institutions in the US. The American coordinator of the project is Prof. Richard Freund and the survey is being funded by John and Carol Merrill and the Frankel Foundation of Los Angeles. 

The survey, he said, is to take a week to 10 days. Because the equipment is only available at this time of year, the archeologists must work now, at the peak of the summer heat at the Dead Sea, where temperatures routinely exceed 40 degrees. 

As for the known scrolls, Broshi said that although they have been published, it will take years to draw the relevant conclusions. The scrolls have to be compared, and the various scholars have to see what their colleagues have done. He said that between 700 and 800 scientific articles are published yearly about the scrolls in English, German, French, and Italian. 

"It's more than one person can read," Broshi said.

  1995-2002, The Jerusalem Post - All rights reserved



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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